Answers to 16 of Michael Horton’s questions about Justification

A friend, Bill, asked me to answer the following questions that were originally posed by Micheal Horton in an interview. Topics covered rage from the doctrine of justification, Romans 9, , faith and works, merit, mortal sin, purgatory, baptism and eternal life.

1. Michael Horton: Do Catholics teach salvation by works? That’s often one of the things we hear on the street, in evangelical circles at least.

No, the Catholic church teaches that nothing we do merits salvation. The Council of Trent stressed: “none of those things that precede justification, whether faith or works, merit the grace of justification. ‘For, if by grace, it is not now by works, otherwise,’ as the Apostle says, ‘grace is no more grace. So, that “word on the street” you mention is a misperception.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches ONLY CHRIST is capable of meriting in the strict sense—mere man cannot merit salvation.

The most merit humans can have is condign merit—when, under the impetus of God’s grace, they perform acts which please him and which he has promised to reward (Rom. 2:6–11, Gal. 6:6–10). Thus, God’s grace and his promise form the foundation for ALL human merit (Catechism of the Catholic Church). It is in Him and through Him that we live, move and have our being.

Neither our faith nor our works—nor anything else—merits justification. Trent thus denies the very thing our Protestant brethren fear it asserts.” -Jimmy Akin.

The idea that Catholics believe in “works salvation” is usually a result of a failure to understand that Catholics make a distinction between two types of works: works of the law and faith working through love. We can’t fulfill the righteous requirements of the law but we are required to fulfill the law of Christ, which is faith working through love. -Tim Staples

When Protestants talk about works they usually have “works of the law” in mind. Catholics agree with Protestants that we cannot be saved by works of the law. But when Catholic talks about works, more often than not they have “faith working through love” in mind. So we end up talking past each other.

The apostle Paul makes a distinction between those two types of works. Works of the Law and The Law of Christ which is faith working through love.

“For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.” Galations 5:6

Paul taught that we are saved by grace alone and not by works of the law. By that grace, and only by grace, we fulfill the righteous requirements of the law (Romans 8:3-4).
Paul also taught that faith working through love is necessary to fulfill the law of Christ
Paul explains that we must show the “fruit of the Spirit” (Gal 5:16–26) and bear one another’s burdens (Gal. 6:1ff) as a way of fulfilling the “law of Christ” (Gal. 6:2).

In 1 Cor 13:1-3, Paul says that faith without love is nothing. Faith isn’t just belief alone, because James 2:19 notes that even the demons believe. Faith must work through love.

These kind of '“word on the street” misperceptions get perpetuated by Christians of goodwill, like R. C. Sproul who create a straw man of what the Catholic church teaches. I mention him specifically because, ironically, it was R.C. Sproul’s misrepresentation of the Catholic faith that prompted my journey into full communion with the Catholic church. Dr. Sproul encouraged people to read the Council of Trent to see how how it contradicts the biblical doctrine of justification. I took him up on that and read it. It wasn’t unbiblical. It actually honored Christ in a profound way. That made me stop and think…

Sproul’s presupposition is that Cavlinism is the “biblical view” of the gospel. But what if Calvinism isn’t what he thought? I delved further into scripture and history to answer that question. ,I fully expected that the reformed conception of the gospel would stand up to testing and that the Catholic view would fail. But as I read source documents, it became clear that Sproul misrepresented both the Council of Trent and Catholic teaching. This was a hard realization because I had so much respect for him.

Another former Protestant, Daniel Hyland wrote about his experience which was similar to mine in R.C. Sproul: A Former Protestants Gratitude

“ How I would have hated to tell him to his face that it was partially his arguments against Catholicism that spurred me on to accept the Catholic Faith! Yet as a Catholic, I am more grateful to him than I ever was as a Protestant. In the strange maneuverings of grace, this fierce opponent of the Church helped prepare me to join in her communion”

Calvinists often incorrectly claim that the Council of Trent “damned them to hell for believing in the biblical doctrine of justification”. Not so

Again, the Council of Trent stressed: “None of those things which precede justification, whether faith or works, merit the grace of justification; for if it is by grace, it is not now by works; otherwise, as the Apostle [Paul] says, grace is no more grace”

The Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches ONLY CHRIST is capable of meriting in the strict sense—mere man cannot merit salvation.

Neither our faith nor our works—nor anything else—merits justification. Trent thus denies the very thing our Protestant brethren fear it asserts.” -Jimmy Akin

Sproul, a fierce opponent of the Catholic Church claimed, “Trent said that God does not justify anyone until real righteousness inheres within the person. In other words, God does not declare a person righteous unless he or she is righteous. So, according to Roman Catholic doctrine, justification depends on a person’s sanctification.” That is not what Trent says. Catholic teaching doesn’t say Justification depends on a person’s sanctification! It says that sanctification is included with justification.

The Catholic view isn’t just that we are are declared righteous. God doesn’t just change our status, he also changes our hearts of stone to flesh and sheds love abroad in our hearts as Romans 5:5 says. . When we are “born of the Spirit” (Jn.3:8), and are fashioned into “a new creation” (2 Co.5:17), and are “made alive together with Christ” (Co.2:13) we have been given a new humanity, “the new self, created after the likeness of God” (Ep.4:24)…It is grace that precedes our life, carries our life along, saturates our life, and perfects our life. Grace is the fundamental building block of life for those who are in Christ… That’s why in Catholic teaching, even our cooperation with grace is itself a gift of God’s grace." Jeremy de Haan

So, Catholics and Protestants agree that there is nothing we can do to merit salvation. Let’s take a look at what scripture says about works after we are saved.

reformed Protestants believe that eternal life is guaranteed once we are saved

Sproul explains it the way : “I don’t get eternal life as a reward for my works. Rather, I get a reward of eternal life because the righteousness of Jesus is transferred to my account”.

Compare Sproul’s view to what Jesus told us about how men will render their account:

Jesus said: “I tell you, on the day of judgment men will render account for every careless word they utter; for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”-Matthew 12:36-37

Jesus: Only those who do the will of my Father will enter the kingdom of heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.

Jesus warns: They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.

Jesus said, Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.

We can see that Jesus did not teach the Calvinist idea of perseverance of the saints. Calvinists appeal to Jesus saying “no one can snatch them out of my hand” as a proof text of the perseverance of the Saints but in so doing, it makes that verse say more than it says. Jesus didn’t say those given to him by the Father can’t leave him. Snatching and departing are two completely different things. If my husband told me our daughter left our house my reaction would be very different than if he told me she was snatched from our house. Jesus tells the parable of the prodigal son who did left his Father and upon his return his Father said, “my son, who was dead is alive again”.

Paul didn’t teach Perseverace of the saints

Paul said, “Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. Galations 6:8 Sowing is an action, not a status that has been transferred to our account. He writes in the simplest of terms, in Galatians 5:19-21 and 6:7-9, that if Christians allow themselves to be dominated by their “flesh,” or lower nature, they will not make it to heaven. While on the flip side, Christians will only reap the reward of eternal life if they continue to “sow to the Spirit” or perform good works.

Paul wrote: “For [God] will reward every man according to his works: to those who by perseverance in working good seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; there will be . . . glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality” (Rom. 2:6-11; cf. Gal. 6:6-10).

Notice that Paul warned that if we think ourselves to stand, we must beware lest we fall (1 Cor. 10:12) Of himself Paul wrote, “I chastise my body and bring it into subjection, lest having preached to others I myself should become a castaway” (1 Cor. 9:27).

He tells us what the works of the flesh are. Now the works of the flesh are plain: immorality, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, party spirit, envy, drunkenness, carousing and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God . . . Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption (eternal death); but he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. And let us not grow weary in well-doing, for in due season we shall reap, if we do not lose heart.-We Can Work it Out

Paul tells us exactly how we will be judged on judgement day to enter eternal life.

Romans 2: He will render to each on according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality he will give eternal life but for those who are self seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, were will be wrath and duty..

For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified… on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Jesus Christ.

Romans 6:16: Do you not know that if you yield yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience which leads to righteousness? (Gr.dikaiosunen- “justification”)

2 Cor. 5:5: You are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (Note: This verse is what anathema means. It doesn't mean “damned to hell” as some Calvinists think.)

So we can see the problems that arise when the scriptural distinction between initial justification and entering eternal life isn’t taken into account.

We encounter a similar problem when we read things into scripture that aren’t theere

An example of reading into scripture something that isn’t there is Dr. Sproul interpretation of I Corinthians 5:2 .

R.C. Sproul said, “Here we read that our sin is imputed to Christ”. “For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.” The verse doesn’t say anything about imputation. Spoul impases imputation into the verse because of his own a priori commitment to imputation theory.

R.C. Sproul explains that his interpretation of “became sin” means that Jesus was became the ultimate obscenity, the monumental condensation of evil and the light of his countenance was turned off:

“After he became the scapegoat and the Father had imputed to him every sin of every one of his people, the most intense, dense concentration of evil ever experienced on this planet was exhibited. Jesus was the ultimate obscenity The light of his countenance was turned off. All blessedness was removed from his Son, whom he loved, and in its place was the full measure of the divine curse.He didn’t just feel forsaken; he was forsaken. For Jesus to become the curse, he had to be completely forsaken by the Father. It was as if there was a cry from heaven, as if Jesus heard the words “God damn you,” because that’s what it meant to be cursed and under the anathema of the Father. God is too holy to look at sin. He could not bear to look at that concentrated monumental condensation of evil, so he averted his eyes from his Son. The light of his countenance was turned off. All blessedness was removed from his Son, whom he loved, and in its place was the full measure of the divine curse. -R.C. Sproul “Forsaken: Jesus Became a Curse”

Sproul’s commitment to his own theology led him to say God said to his Son, G-d damn you!” The Holy Trinity cannot be divided against itself. “Became sin” doesn’t mean what Sproul thinks it means.

Thee Catholic interpretation of that same verse explains what “became sin” means from scripture. . What we find is an interpretation that honors Christ as what he is. He is Holy-not the ultimate obscenity. A sacred sin offering, the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.

As some translations note, “became sin” means Jesus became a “sin offering”. Throughout the Old Testament, a sin offering was holy, not an obscenity.

St. Paul’s point is to say that Christ, who is sinless, was made our sin offering, which was holy. Scripture repeatedly emphasizes that the sin offering has to be unblemished (Leviticus 4:3, 4:32, 9:2-3, Numbers 6:14, Ezekiel 43:22, etc.). The sin offering is externally pure as a sign of its holiness, and as a prefigurement of the perfect, sinless sin offering, Jesus Christ.
So Jesus is being equated to the sacred sin offering, the holiest sacrifice that the Jews offered. And this sacrificial offering was pleasing to God, so much so that He permitted them into the innermost sanctum, before the Holy of Holies.-Joe Heschmeyer

Curse doesn’t mean damned. Joshua 8:28 and 10:26 demonstrate what is meant by the curse; it's a humiliating form of death, especially for a king. Church Fathers like St Augustine simply interpreted "cursed" to mean Christ inherited 'cursed' flesh, that is, flesh subject to corruption and death, and this reality was prophetically made plain on the cross.

2. Michael Horton:What is the classic formulation of the Catholic doctrine of justification today?

The classic Catholic position is described in the Council of Trent as: men are justified solely through the merits of Christ’s death, communicated to them in grace when they are born again (Session 6, Chapter 3). The Church condemned the opinion that man can be justified by God by his own works (Session 6; Canon I).

The Catechism of the Catholic Church CCC explains it this way:

Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men. Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy. Its purpose is the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life (Cf. Council of Trent (1547): DS 1529):
“none of those things that precede justification, whether faith or works, merit the grace of justification. ‘For, if by grace, it is not now by works, otherwise,’ as the Apostle says, ‘grace is no more grace’” (DJ 8, quoting Rom. 11:6)
The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus' proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel:"
Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man.

3. Michael Horton: Could you summarize that understanding of justification for us?

In short, Justification denotes the transforming of the sinner from the state of unrighteousness to the state of holiness and sonship of God. Considered as an act (actus justifications), justification is the work of God alone.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church says:

Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.
1997 Grace is a participation in the life of God. It introduces us into the intimacy of Trinitarian life: by Baptism the Christian participates in the grace of Christ, the Head of his Body. As an "adopted son" he can henceforth call God "Father," in union with the only Son. He receives the life of the Spirit who breathes charity into him and who forms the Church.
1998 This vocation to eternal life is supernatural. It depends entirely on God's gratuitous initiative, for he alone can reveal and give himself. It surpasses the power of human intellect and will, as that of every other creature.
1999 The grace of Christ is the gratuitous gift that God makes to us of his own life, infused by the Holy Spirit into our soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it. It is the sanctifying or deifying grace received in Baptism. It is in us the source of the work of sanctification:
Therefore if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself.

Faith working through love — Faith Working Through Love.

4. Michael Horton: So, would that hold for individual sins? If I committed a sin at one o’clock, would I be unjustified until I had the opportunity to confess it to a priest?

Not in the sense that you were never justified. When the prodigal son returned to his father, his father said, “my son, who was dead, is alive again”. No one snatched the son from his father’s hands. The son walked away from his Father and severed their relationship. The Father waited to welcome him home again with open arms. That is a picture of the sacrament of reconciliation.

The Sacrament of Confession or Reconciliation is the first step in returning to the Father from whom one has strayed by sin.

As Tim Staples points out, “When Catholics talk about salvation we receive in baptism-that’s a done deal. Catholics do not believe we were partially justified or partially saved at baptism. Catholics believe, as St. Peter said in I Peter 3:21, “Baptism… now saves you…”

Why doe we need the Sacrament of Reconcilation After Baptism?

As soon as Jesus rose from the dead and earned salvation for us, he brought his apostles a new gift. After speaking peace to them, he said, “As the Father has sent me, even so I send you” (John 20:21). Just as Jesus was sent by the Father to reconcile the world to God, Jesus sent the apostles to continue his mission.

Jesus then breathed on the apostles. This is a verse that is often passed over, but it has extraordinary significance because it is only the second time in all of Scripture where God breathes on anyone. The other instance was at the moment of creation, when God breathed his own life into the nostrils of Adam. This should tell us that something of great importance is taking place. Upon doing this, Jesus said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained” (John 20:22–23).-https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/how-to-defend-the-sacrament-of-confession

At baptism, “You were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God." One must appreciate the magnitude of the gift God has given us in the sacraments of Christian initiation in order to grasp the degree to which sin is excluded for him who has "put on Christ." But the apostle John also says: "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." And the Lord himself taught us to pray: "Forgive us our trespasses," linking our forgiveness of one another's offenses to the forgiveness of our sins that God will grant us.

Scripture doesn’t talk about salvation only in the past tense:

I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8),

but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:18, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12),

and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15).

II Cor. 6:1 tells us:

Working together with him, then, we entreat you not to accept the grace of God in vain.

St. Paul urged believers in Antioch—and all of us by allusion—“to continue in the grace of God” (Acts 13:43). Indeed, in a text we will look at more closely in a moment, St. Paul warns Christians that they can “fall from Grace” in Galatians 5:4: You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

JUSTIFICATION AND SALVATION as FUTURE AND CONTINGENT

The major part of the puzzle here that our Protestant friends are missing is that there are many biblical texts revealing both justification and salvation to have a future and contingent sense as well as these we have mentioned that show a past sense.

In other words, justification and salvation also have a sense in which they are not complete in the lives of believers. Perhaps this is most plainly seen in Galatians 5:1-5.

For freedom Christ has set us free; stand fast therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery. Now I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you. I testify again to every man who receives circumcision that he is bound to keep the whole law. You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. For through the Spirit, by faith, we wait for the hope of righteousness.

The Greek word used in verse 6 and here translated as “righteousness” is dikaiosunes, which can be translated either as “righteouness” or as “justification.” In fact, Romans 4:3, which we quoted above, uses a verb form of this same term for justification. Now the fact that St. Paul tells us we “wait for the hope of [justification]” is very significant. As we said before, that which one “hopes” for is something one does not yet possess. It is still in the future. Romans 8:24 tells us:

For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience.

The context of Galatians is clear: St. Paul warns Galatian Christians that if they attempt to be justified—even though they are already justified in one sense, through baptism, according to Gal. 3:27—by the works of the law, they will fall from the grace of Christ. Why? Because they would be attempting to be justified apart from Christ and the gospel of Christ! St. Paul makes very clear in Romans and elsewhere that “those who are in the flesh cannot please God” (Rom. 8:8, cf. Gal. 5:19-21). “The flesh” is a reference to the human person apart from grace.

The truth is: this example of justification being in the future is not an isolated case. There are numerous biblical texts that indicate both justification and salvation to be future and contingent realities, in one sense, as well as past completed realities in another sense:

Romans 2:13-16: For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified… on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Jesus Christ.

I Cor. 5:5: You are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Paul writes in the simplest of terms, in Galatians 5:19-21 and 6:7-9, that if Christians allow themselves to be dominated by their “flesh,” or lower nature, they will not make it to heaven. While on the flip side, Christians will only reap the reward of eternal life if they continue to “sow to the Spirit” or perform good works:

Now the works of the flesh are plain: immorality, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, party spirit, envy, drunkenness, carousing and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God . . . Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption (eternal death); but he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. And let us not grow weary in well-doing, for in due season we shall reap, if we do not lose heart.-We Can Work it Out

St. Paul said. "Do you not know that in a race all the runners compete, but only one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain it. Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. Well, I do not run aimlessly, I do not box as one beating the air; but I pommel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified."

St. Peter wrote that if Christians are fruiiful, they will be provided entrance into eternal life:

For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins. Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to confirm your calling and election, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall. For in this way there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Jesus makes it clear that our sin can impact our relationship in the kingdom of heaven:

Matt. 5:19:

Whoever then relaxes (breaks) one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Our Lord here teaches that there are “least commandments” a person can break and even teach others to do so yet still remain “in the kingdom of heaven.” That is both a good definition of venial sin and perfectly in line with paragraph 1863 of the Catechism.

Then, Jesus goes on to warn us in no uncertain terms that there are other sins that will take us to hell—if we do not repent, of course. For example, in Matt. 5: 22, Jesus says, “… whoever says ‘You fool!’ shall be liable to the hell of fire.” In verses 28-29, he says:

But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and throw it away; it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell.

Mark 9:47-48:

And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched. His teaching here doesn’t square with the idea of being judged by an alien righteousness.

Clearly Jesus teaches there are some sins that will separate us from God for all eternity and some that will not–mortal and venial sin.

A mortal sin has to have 3 conditions: it must be a grave matter, it must be committed with full knowledge that it is a mortal sin and with full consent to disobey God.

So, to answer your question, if you committed a mortal sin at 1:00., you didn’t lose your initial justification that was merited for you by Christ. What you lost was sanctifying grace, not actual grace.

In Catholic theology there are 2 kinds of grace: actual and sanctifying. this distinction is critical to understand catholic teaching

Here is another example of the both/ands. Actual grace acts from the outside-that’s why Catholics believe that no one can be saved without first being moved by the Holy Spirit. Protestants and Catholics agree on this point.

Sanctifying grace lives in the soul. If you commit a mortal sin with full knowledge and full consent you have chosen to kill the sanctifying grace-the faith, hope and love that the Holy Spirit shed abroad in your heart at the time of your initial justification so that you could become a partaker of the divine nature.

Just as these Biblical practices are channels of God’s forgiving grace, the sacrament of confession does not add to or take away from the finished work of Christ. It is evidence of the finished work of Christ in our midst.

Paul understood the difference between actual grace and sanctifying grace

Paul, writing at the end of his life, said “I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me on that Day” (2 Tim. 4:7-8).

But earlier in life, even Paul did not claim an infallible assurance, either of his present justification or of his remaining in grace in the future. Concerning his present state, he wrote, “For I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby acquitted. It is the Lord who judges me. Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.” (1 Cor. 4:4).

Concerning his remaining life, Paul was frank in admitting that even he could fall away: “I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified” (1 Cor. 9:27).

The Catholic Church teaches that the apostles and their successors were entrusted with the ministry of reconciliation (see 2 Corinthians 5:18), and Jesus explicitly gave the apostles the power to not just preach the forgiveness of sins but to actually forgive or retain sins (John 20:23). The Catechism says:

The office of binding and loosing which was given to Peter (Matt. 16:18-19) was also assigned to the college of the apostles united to its head. The words bind and loose mean: whomever you exclude from your communion will be excluded from communion with God; whomever you receive anew into your communion God will welcome back into his. Reconciliation with the Church is inseparable from reconciliation with God (CCC 1444-1445

5. Michael Horton: What is the state of the debate these days in Roman Catholic circles in interpreting justification in the Greek, dikaioo/dikaiosis, and the Latin ,iustificare? I'm thinking here of Joseph Fitzmyer, who says that clearly this is a legal, forensic term in the Greek, and the Latin, iustificar-, "to make righteous" is actually a misunderstanding and mistranslation of the Greek "to declare righteous." Where is the debate now in biblical scholarship in Catholic circles?

This question belies some basic misunderstandings on Horton’s part. First, let’s see what Fitzmer and Brown said in context:

One can certainly not appeal to this forensic sense to exclude a more radical transformation of man through the Christ-event, making it the essence of the Christian experience, as it were. For justification is really the placing of man in a status of uprightness in the sight of God through the association of him with the salvific activity of Christ Jesus—through the incorporation of him in Christ and his Church through faith and baptism. The result of this justification is that the Christian becomes dikaios(upright); he is not just declared to be so but is actually constituted such (katastathçsontai, Rom 5:19). Paul recognizes that as a Christian he no longer has an uprightness of his own, based on the Law, but one acquired through faith in Christ, an “uprightness from God” (Phil 3:8-9). And the Christian in union with Christ is even said to become “the uprightness of God” (2 Cor 5:21). And regarding Abraham’s justification, the same Brown-Fitzmyer-Murphy source states: It would be false to Paul’s whole theology to understand his use of Gn 15:6 to mean a mere legal fiction, that uprightness was imputed to Abraham, although he was not really upright. The Fitmyer Gambit

Taking things out of context has fueled division between Protestants and Catholics for over 500 years. If we don’t understand each other’s terminology, we fail to judge correctly

The New Testament uses the word justification to refer to one of the things that God does for us by his grace. Protestants work from their own definition and impose in onto the Catholic view. A former Calvinist explains why Protestants and Catholics often talk past each other:

If you go through Trent’s Decree on Justification, or the section on justification in the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC 1987-1995), you won’t find the phrase “faith and works.” And you won’t find the word works at all in the Catechism’s section on justification. This may be surprising, but the fact that the magisterium does not express its teaching in this way is a signal that we need to look more closely at what it says. Faith and Works

“From the Catholic point of view, God initiates our salvation by his grace, but he doesn’t stop there. Our works of obedience which follow the start of God’s salvific action in us are also the work of grace. As Augustine put it, when God rewards our merits or works, he crowns his own gifts to us. -Righteousness Done Right

both Catholics and Protestants reject Pelagianism, but there’s a critical difference

Catholics believe that grace enables us to do good works, whereas Protestants tend to believe that grace causes us to do good works. To see why it matters, consider the parable of the unmerciful servant, Matthew 18:21-35. In this parable, we see three things happen:

A debtor is forgiven an enormous debt of ten thousand talents (Mt. 18:25-27). Solely through the grace of the Master (clearly representing God), this man is forgiven his debts (sins). He is in a state of grace.
This debtor refuses to forgive his neighbor of a small debt of 100 denarii (Mt. 18:28-30). The fact that he’s been forgiven should enable the debtor to be forgiving: in being forgiven, he’s received the equivalent of 60,000,000 denarii, and he’s certainly seen a moral model to follow. But he turns away from the model laid out by the Master, and refuses to forgive his neighbor.
This debtor is unforgiven by his Master (Mt. 18:32-35). The kicker comes at the very end: “And in anger his lord delivered him to the jailers, till he should pay all his debt. So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart.”

Now, consider all of the Protestant work-arounds discussed above. To deny that this debtor was ever really forgiven would be an insult to the Master and in contradiction to the text. To say that, if we’re forgiven, we’ll just naturally forgive is equally a contradiction: this debtor is forgiven, and doesn’t. To treat the need to forgive the other debtor as a non-binding moral exhortation would have been a fatal error.

This parable gets to the heart of the issue. The Master’s forgiveness is freely given, and cannot be earned. But that doesn’t mean it’s given unconditionally or irrevocably. Quite the contrary: Christ shows us in this parable that it can be repealed, and tells us why: if we refuse to forgive, we will not be forgiven. It turns out, the Lord’s Prayer actually means what it says. Forgiving Trespasses How the Lord’s Prayer Contradicts the Reformation

As discussed above, let’s keep in mind that faith without love is nothing.

Jeremy de Haan points out that The Catholic view of salvation can be seen in Romans 4 . Paul does something interesting here-quotes Psalm 32 in the middle of a discussion on justification:

Paul says, Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works: “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin” [Rm. 4:4-8 ESV]. Paul quotes David here because David “speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works.” So, what does David reveal about that person in Psalm 32? Is he someone whose salvation consists in the imputed obedience of another, or in having received a new heart?
Blessed is the one whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered; blessed is the man against whom the LORD counts no iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no deceit [Ps.32:1-2].
This blessed person of whom David speaks, the one whom Paul says is “the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works,” is someone “whose transgression is forgiven” and more to the point, is someone “in whose spirit there is no deceit.”
Again, there is no suggestion here that David is speaking of a salvation that consists in receiving the imputed obedience of another; but there is plain and direct evidence for a salvation that consists in receiving a new and holy heart. And Paul refers to the very person described by David as an illustration of what he’s talking about in Romans 4. To be counted righteous by God is not to have received Christ’s record of perfect obedience, but to have received Christ’s life in the depths of your heart.
Romans 4 itself confirms this. Paul writes that a believer’s “faith is counted as righteousness.” Paul here says that a believer’s faith – something internal, something in the heart of the believer – is counted by God as righteousness. This is precisely what the Catholic Church teaches about the nature of the gospel. The gospel is about what God does not only to our status, but most importantly to our souls – and thereby to our status. It is in receiving in our hearts the righteousness of Christ that God declares us to be truly righteous.
The next verses in Psalm 32 David explains how his transgressions were forgiven. He says, “When I kept silent, my bones wasted away through my groaning all day long.
4 For day and night your hand was heavy on me; my strength was sapped as in the heat of summer.
5 Then I acknowledged my sin to you and did not cover up my iniquity. I said, “I will confess my transgressions to the LORD.” And you forgave the guilt of my sin.
Ezekiel 3:18-21, very explicitly laying out both negative and positive conditionality of salvation:
“When I say to a wicked person, ‘You will surely die,’ and you do not warn them or speak out to dissuade them from their evil ways in order to save their life, that wicked person will die for their sin, and I will hold you accountable for their blood. But if you do warn the wicked person and they do not turn from their wickedness or from their evil ways, they will die for their sin; but you will have saved yourself.
“Again, when a righteous person turns from their righteousness and does evil, and I put a stumbling block before them, they will die. Since you did not warn them, they will die for their sin. The righteous things that person did will not be remembered, and I will hold you accountable for their blood. But if you do warn the righteous person not to sin and they do not sin, they will surely live because they took warning, and you will have saved yourself.” -https://shamelesspopery.com/three-major-arguments-against-assurance-of-salvation/

6.michael horton” But there is the expectation that God will reward our works, right? There's still the idea of merit in Catholic faith and practice?

Let’s begin with what scripture says about merit. Paul wrote: For [God] will reward every man according to his works: to those who by perseverance in working good seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; there will be . . . glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality” (Rom. 2:6-11; cf. Gal. 6:6-10).

Catholic theology distinguishes at least three types of merit: congruent merit, in which it is fitting for an act to be rewarded, but there is no obligation to do so; condign merit, in which one has promised to reward the act, so there is an obligation; and what might be called strict merit, in which there is not only an obligation to reward, but the value of the act is equal to the value of the reward.

The Church teaches only Christ is capable of meriting in the strict sense. The most merit humans can have is condign – when, under the impetus of God’s grace, they perform acts which please him and which he has promised to reward (Rom. 2:6-11, Gal. 6:6-10). Thus God’s grace and his promise are the foundation for all human merit (Catechism of the Catholic Church 2007-2008).

Protestants often have much confusion about the Catholic understanding of merit, thinking that Catholics teach that one must do good works to come to God and be saved. This is exactly the opposite of what the Church teaches. As explained above, The Council of Trent stressed: “[N]one of those things which precede justification, whether faith or works, merit the grace of justification; for if it is by grace, it is not now by works; otherwise, as the Apostle [Paul] says, grace is no more grace” (Decree on Justification 8, citing Rom. 11:6).

The Council of Trent stressed: “[N]one of those things which precede justification, whether faith or works, merit the grace of justification; for if it is by grace, it is not now by works; otherwise, as the Apostle [Paul] says, grace is no more grace” (Decree on Justification 8, citing Rom. 11:6).

This is completely supported in scripture:

Paul calls himself a “co-worker with Christ” (1 Cor. 3:9) who shares in Christ’s sufferings (2 Cor. 1:5; Phil. 3:10)

2 Cor. 1:6 says , If we are afflicted, it is for your comfort and salvation

Rom. 8:17 if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.

One verse Protestants often miss is: Eph. 3:13) Col 1:24 Now I rejoice in my sufferings for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions for the sake of His body, which is the church.

Peter says, “Wherefore, labor the more, that by good works you make sure your calling and election” (2 Pet. 1:10).

We are warned that if we think ourselves to stand, we must beware lest we fall (1 Cor. 10:12)

and that we must work out our salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12).

Of himself Paul wrote, “I chastise my body and bring it into subjection, lest having preached to others I myself should become a castaway” (1 Cor. 9:27).

7. michael horton: Do you still see justification as it is interpreted by Reformation theology as a "legal fiction"?

The classical Protestant notion is that when God declares a person justified, the person’s justification is merely extrinsic (that is, a mere juridical declaration of a change stemming from a purely legal imputation of Christ’s righteousness to the sinner).

Under this scheme — a “legal fiction,” as Catholic apologists since the Reformation have rightly termed it — there is no real, inward change in the sinner. His soul remains corrupted, unclean.

The Catholic Church teaches that justification is intrinsic. This means that the initial justification of the sinner, wrought by God’s gift of grace and appropriated by faith (in the case of those above the age of reason), produces a real, inward change. The soul is filled with grace and becomes clean. Note that isn’t that God sees something good in the person. He gives the person a new heart and pours faith hope and love into it.

“For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven, and return not thither but water the earth, making it bring forth and sprout, giving seed to the sower and bread to the eater, so shall my word be that goes forth from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and prosper in the thing for which I sent it” (Isaiah 55:10-11).

“Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life” (Rom. 6:3-4).

“We know that our old self was crucified with him so that the sinful body might be destroyed, and we might no longer be enslaved to sin. For he who has died is freed [literally: “justified”] from sin” (Rom. 6:7-8).

“And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God” (1 Cor. 6:11).

“If anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come” (2 Cor. 5:17).

“Put off your old nature which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful lusts, and be renewed in the spirit of your minds, and put on the new nature, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness” (Eph. 4:22-24).

“You have been born anew, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God” (1 Pet. 1:23).

“[I]f we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin” (1 John 1:7).

“Repent, therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out, that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord” (Acts 3:19). -Catholic Answers Intrinsic Justification

8. Michael Horton: No, The reformed view isn’t a legal fiction because the righteousness that God demands in the Law is fully present in Jesus Christ. He has fully satisfied all of the conditions of the covenant of law, so...

Scripture doesn’t say anywhere that we will be forensically declared righteous because Jesus kept the law.

Romans 13 says that love fulfills the law. Galations 5 says that faith working through love avails something-it fulfills the law of Christ. Paul said,

For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.” (Romans 2:13)
We must remember that God doesn’t desire legalism, but circumcision of the heart. And the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your offspring, so that you will love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live. Deueronomy 30:6

Long ago, the prophet Jeremiah spoke about the salvation that would come to the world through Christ: “I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel,” Jeremiah wrote, “I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts.” (Jeremiah 31:31-33)
In the Western Catholic tradition, we have a name for this sharing in the divine nature. It is called sanctifying grace. Eastern Catholics refer to it as theosis – or divinization. It does not mean that one becomes God in the pantheistic sense of merging indistinguishably into the divine essence. Rather, it means that one regains what was lost in Adam, that full “image and likeness of God” that orients us towards heaven.
This sharing in God’s own life comes through identification with Christ. St. Paul says, “We have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk innewness of life.” (Romans 6:4) It makes us God’s children by adoption. (John 1:12). It brings the gift of God’s Spirit (Romans 8:9), a life of joy, hope, and love. (Romans 5:5)
Scripture doesn’t say that we will be forensically declared righteous because Jesus kept the law.
Throughout sacred Scripture, we learn that it is love and mercy, not legalism, that God desires. (Hosea 6:6; Matthew 9:13). The real fulfillment of the law comes through love. (Romans 13:8). Through faith, we receive the gift of the Spirit and our sinful inclinations are overcome. (Romans 8:9-10) Our old man dies with Christ. (Romans 6:6) The gift of the Spirit to us is love. (Galatians 5:22) Through the circumcision of the heart, we fulfill the “righteous requirements of the law.” (Deuteronomy 30:6, Ezekiel 36:26, Romans 2:25-29; Romans 8:3-4)
This is what St. Paul means when he says we are justified by faith and not works. The bare letter of the law is powerless to save us, and even less the mere outward rituals of Jewish observance. The apostle says, “For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.” (Romans 2:13) This true obedience to the law – to the spirit of the law and not its mere letter – the life of faith, hope, and charity- is what we receive by the gift of grace.- http://calvin2catholic.com/366/

9. michael horton: But then the faith in Roman Catholic understanding, correct me if I'm wrong, faith is not justifying until it is formed by love, so what you're saying is that acceptance or justification of Abraham was based on what God saw in him, not only in terms of faith, but also in terms of charity and good works.

No, that is not the Catholic view. It is not that God saw something in Abraham that made him acceptable. This is another classic example of how Protestants judge Catholic teaching incorrectly because they do not understand correctly what the Catholic church teaches.

The Catholic view is not that Abraham was acceptable, it is that God made him acceptable by pouring faith, hope and love into his heart. These characteristics enable us to partake in the divine nature by way of the three theological virtues. These virtues are known as faith, hope, and love. 1 Corinthians 13:13 says “So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.”

Upon justification, the theological virtues are directly infused into our souls by God. They enable us to live out our lives as Christians. The virtues are the pledge of the presence and action of the Holy Spirit in the faculties of the human being (CCC, 1813).

Our justification is merited by Christ’s passion on the cross. We are not capable of meriting justification by our own actions or powers. The Council of Trent states that “no one can be just, but he to whom the merits of the Passion of our Lord Jesus Christ are communicated” (Trent, VI.7).

he Holy Spirit works to bring us conversion of heart (Acts 7:51), which is the very first work of grace by the Holy Spirit. It is also an ongoing work of grace throughout our lives.

Protestants rightly desire that God get all the glory so they insist that man cannot play

Matthew 17:2 uses ginomai when describing Christ’s garments during the transfiguration on the mount. His garments become white as light. Similarly, when we are justified we are cleansed in our interior beings.

With justification also comes sanctification. 1 Corinthians 6:1 says, “You were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.” -Justification in Catholicism Brianna Huddleston

10. michael horton: How about the question of assurance? How about if someone came to you and said, "I am confident that I am not only now in a state of grace, but I am God's elect child, I have all of my sins completely forgiven’past, present, and future’ and the righteousness of Christ is imputed to me, therefore I know that I will be saved hereafter. I know I am one of God's elect and I am completely forgiven." What would you say to that person?

I would encourage that person to first ask, “is my view is really the biblical view”? That’s what I did. I learned that if we have to re-interpret Jesus teaching to make it congruent with our theology then it is time to re-examine our theology. When people ask me why I became Catholic, the short answer is “to follow my Lord and Savior Christ”.

Christ said three times that our being forgiven is conditioned upon our forgiving others. He taught us to pray forgive us our trespasses as we forgive others. He said, “unless you forgive your heavenly Father will not forgive you.” Calvin flat out said the opposite of what Jesus said! He said, “The forgiveness, which we ask that God would give us, does not depend on the forgiveness which we grant to others.”

Philippians 2:12 says, “Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Romans 9 is the lynchpin of the reformed view of predestination. However there are several reasons to re-examine that view. WHEN PAUL ADDRESSES ETERNAL LIFE FOR INDIVIDUALS HE SAYS SOMETHING ENTIRELY DIFFERENT THAN WHEN HE TALKS ABOUT THE ELECTION OF NATIONS.

In contrast to Calvinism’s claims, St. Paul explicitly denies that God shows any favoritism, as regards salvation. In Romans 2:4-11 he writes:

“Or do you presume upon the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience? Do you not know that God’s kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed.

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”For he will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury.

There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality.”

And despite Paul’s point that “God shows no partiality” (which is literally the central argument of the Epistle, since Paul’s answering the idea that God arbitrarily divided the world into two immutable groups: Jews and Gentiles). Calvinists use this Epistle to justify the idea that God shows partiality and divided the world into two immutable groups: the elect and reprobate. -

2 Chapters later, Paul makes it clear that he wasn’t referring to eternal life.

IN ROMANS 11, ST. PAUL’S USE OF “ELECTION” IS SPECIFICALLY ABOUT THE IRREVOCABLE ELECTION OF NATION ISRAEL-NOT ABOUT ELECTION OF INDIVIDUAL PEOPLE TO ETERNAL LIFE

Romans 9-11 answer the question-”did God go back on his promises to Israel?” Paul’s answer is that the nation is beloved because of their election but that regarding salvation, they are enemies.

Paul writes, As regards the gospel, they (the Jews) are enemies for your sake.

But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers.

St. Paul distinguishes between the Gospel and election. He doesn’t say that election is to salvation. He says that election is based on their forefathers.

GOD EXPLAINED WHAT HE MEANT WHEN HE SAID HE “HATED ESAU”.

God explained what “hating” Esau means. He said he was referring to what he did to a country not to a person. God said, “I have loved you, says Yahweh. But you ask, "How have you shown your love?" Was not Esau Jacob's brother? declares Yahweh; even so, I loved Jacobbut I hated Esau. I turned his mountains into a desert and his heritage into dwellings in the wastelands.” Malachi 1

Romans 9 is quoting the book of Exodus where God allowed the country of the Edomites (the descendants of Esau) to be turned into a wasteland.:

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion. It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy”. That chapter is about the way that God preserved and protected the Israelites, while allowing the country of the Edomites (the descendants of Esau) to be turned into a wasteland (Malachi 1:2-5).

GOD DIDN’T SAY ANYTHING ABOUT ESAU’S ETERNAL DESTINY. BUT HE DID SAY SOMETHING ABOUT HIS PLAN FOR THE NATION THAT CAME FROM ESAU.

Despite Esau being born first, with Jacob (lit: "he who grabs the heel") coming out right after, God declares "The older will serve the younger" in Genesis 25:21-23, it says:
Two nations are in your womb, and two peoples from within you shall be divided; the one shall be stronger than the other, the older shall serve the younger."
This is why Paul immediately adds, "As it is written, 'Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated'," quoting not Genesis, but rather Malachi 1. God goes on to say,
2 "I have loved you [Jacob]," says the LORD. But you [Jacob] say, "How have you loved us?" "Is not Esau Jacob’s brother?" declares the LORD. "Yet I have loved Jacob 3but Esau I have hated. I have laid waste his hill country and left his heritage to jackals of the desert."
4 If Edom says, "We are shattered but we will rebuild the ruins," the LORD of hosts says, "They may build, but I will tear down, and they will be called 'the wicked country,' and 'the people with whom the LORD is angry forever.'" 5 Your own eyes shall see this, and you shall say, “Great is the Lord beyond the border of Israel!”
God explained that he was speaking of nations when he was speaking of his sovereign choice. The Calvinist says, yes, but he was talking about individuals. Indeed he was. But he never said he made a choice regarding those individuals’ eternal salvation or damnation. He did say his sovereign choice was about nations.
Do we dare put words in God’s mouth?
THE CONTEXT OF THE ENTIRE DISCUSSION IS FOCUSED ON GOD’S SOVEREIGN CHOICE IN NATIONS, NOT INDIVIDUALS
(The name "Edom" is the nation of Esau's lineage.) Thus, there is yet another distinction among Abraham's lineage, first Isaac over Ismael, and now Jacob (renamed "Israel") being chosen over Esau. Of the nations that would emerge, one would be blessed, while the other would be cursed (by living in sin and not having any promises granted to that lineage). But even here Paul isn't speaking about predestination to hell or even salvation, rather remaining on the realm of temporal blessings. -Does Romans 9 condemn Unconditional Election as Heresy?
How Should Catholics Understand Romans 9?
Paul speaks of two immutable groups, Jews and Gentile. Calvinists impose the idea that the two groups are the elect and reprobates. If Paul were a Calvinist, he would say that God does show partiality, and does divide the world into two arbitrary and unchanging groups for purposes of salvation, but that the two groups are elect/reprobate, rather than Jew/Greek. Did God Die for You?
But that’s not what Paul says.
Paul writes in the simplest of terms, in Galatians 5:19-21 and 6:7-9, that if Christians allow themselves to be dominated by their “flesh,” or lower nature, they will not make it to heaven. While on the flip side, Christians will only reap the reward of eternal life if they continue to “sow to the Spirit” or perform good works:
Now the works of the flesh are plain: immorality, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, party spirit, envy, drunkenness, carousing and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God . . . Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption (eternal death); but he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. And let us not grow weary in well-doing, for in due season we shall reap, if we do not lose heart.-We Can Work it Out
When Paul interprets himself instead of being interpreted by a theological system developed 1500 years later, the meaning of 2 immutable groups becomes clearer.

THE BOOK OF ROMANS SPEAKS OF TWO IMMUTABLE GROUPS. BUT PAUL IS QUICK TO NOTE THAT IN ROMANS 9 THAT INDIVIDUAL’S MEMBERSHIP IN THESE GROUPS CHANGES (SEE ROMANS 9:25-26)

In Romans 11, Paul explains that individual people can join and be cut off from the two groups because of their unbelief and he warns them to stand fast in the faith because if they do not continue in God’s kindness they too will be cut off.

Regarding the issue of whether Christians have an “absolute” assurance of salvation, regardless of their actions, consider this warning Paul gave: “See then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off” (Rom. 11:22; see also Heb. 10:26–29, 2 Pet. 2:20–21).

11.michael horton: How do you know, and how would an average layperson know that he or she hasn't committed a damnable sin? What would be a non-damnable sin?

Well, first, its impossible to commit a mortal sin by mistake.

Let’s look at what Jesus said:

Matt. 5:19:

Whoever then relaxes (breaks) one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Our Lord here teaches that there are “least commandments” a person can break and even teach others to do so yet still remain “in the kingdom of heaven.” That is both a good definition of venial sin and perfectly in line with paragraph 1863 of the Catechism. Then, Jesus goes on to warn us in no uncertain terms that there are other sins that will take us to hell—if we do not repent, of course. For example, in Matt. 5: 22, Jesus says, “… whoever says ‘You fool!’ shall be liable to the hell of fire.” In verses 28-29, he says:
But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and throw it away; it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell.
Clearly Jesus teaches there are some sins that will separate us from God for all eternity and some that will not–mortal and venial sin.
Matt. 12:32:
And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come (Matthew 12:32, emphasis added).
This statement of our Lord implies there are at least some sins that can be forgiven in the next life and some that cannot to a people who already believed it to be so. That sounds awful Catholic, doesn’t it? -Mortal and Venial Sin?

Let’s look at what Paul wrote:

Galatians 5:19-21 Now the works of the flesh are plain: fornication, impurity, licentiousness, [20] idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, party spirit, [21] envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Why warn them about the possibility of not “inherit[ing] the kingdom of God” if they are in no danger whatsoever of losing it? That makes no sense. Why would Paul use the word “warn” if it didn’t also apply to real potential danger in the spiritual lives of his Galatian recipients?
The early part of the chapter makes it crystal clear that a Christian can fall away from the faith: Galatians 5:1, 4 For freedom Christ has set us free; stand fast therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery. . . . [4] You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. Ephesians 5:3, 5 But fornication and all impurity or covetousness must not even be named among you, as is fitting among saints. . . . [5] Be sure of this, that no fornicator or impure man, or one who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
-The Bible is Clear: ‘Eternal Security’ is a Manmade Doctrine

All that said, keep in mind that a sin is not considered mortal unless there is full knowledge and full consent.

12.micheal horton: Where did the church get those answers?

The Church speaks with the authority given to her by Christ:

As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” (John 20:21)
“Whoever listens to you listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me.” (Luke 10:16)
“Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” (Matt. 16:18; Matt. 18:18)

Christ did give us a rule of faith before His ascension. He gave us the teaching of the apostles. It is important to note that Christ never mentions the writings of the apostles. He gave them no command to write, and never restricted their authority to the written word. His authority attached to their persons and their teaching.
They appointed presbyters for them in each church.” (Acts 14:23)
[Paul to Titus] “For this reason I left you in Crete so that you might . . . appoint presbyters in every town, as I directed you.” (Titus 1:5)
[Paul to Timothy] “And what you heard from me through many witnesses entrust to faithful people who will have the ability to teach others as well.” (2 Timothy 2:2)
“For a bishop as God’s steward must . . . be able both to exhort with sound doctrine and to refute opponents.” (Titus 1:7-9)
When Judas died, Mathhias took his office. “Let another take his office.”
These texts show clearly that the apostles appointed the bishops and priests (presbyters) who took over the leadership of the infant church. They also show that leaders were 1) stewards of the Gospel, 2) given authority to teach and refute false doctrine, 3) ordered to entrust this charge to others. -Sola Scripture vs the Magisterium: What Did Jesus Teach?
See also:

https://www.catholicprotestantbridge.com/blog/2019/10/5/where-the-church-an-invisible-collection-of-believersis-the-magiaterium-in-the-bible-part-1-is-the-church-just-an-individual-collection-of-believers

https://www.catholicprotestantbridge.com/blog/2019/10/6/s4mad6hgfitu3zfkm44eybxy3gvqil?rq=magisterium

13. michael horton:So eating meat on Fridays was a mortal sin?

Eating meat wasn't a mortal sin. A moral sin has to have 3 requirements: it must be a grave matter, done with full knowledge and full consent. Eating meat on Friday isn’t a grave matter, but refusal to submit to the authority vested in the church by our Lord is a grave matter. And if all 3 conditions apply, then it could be a mortal sin.

The Church was given her authority from Jesus to bind and loose. He told the leaders of his Church, “Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven” (Mt 16:19, 18:18).

This language of “binding and loosing” was a Jewish phrase that was that meant forbidding and permitting. This pertained to the ability of scribes and Pharisees to establish rules of conduct for the faith community, and the good Jew was called by Christ to obey them (Matt. 23:3).

Since Jesus gave this authority to the leaders of his Church, they have authority to do such things as establish feast days and lay down laws for the good of the community.

14.michael horton: do you believe with Trent that Protestants who do believe in justification by grace alone through faith alone because of Christ alone should be considered anathema?

First, that is not what Trent says! This is another classic straw man that Calvinists have been fighting for years. I hope that this discussion will move us past that straw man so that we can discuss the real issues.

This is what the Council of Trent says:

And whereas the Apostle saith, that man is justified by faith and freely, those words are to be understood in that sense which the perpetual consent of the Catholic Church hath held and expressed; to wit, that we are therefore said to be justified by faith, because faith is the beginning of human salvation, the foundation, and the root of all Justification; without which it is impossible to please God, and to come unto the fellowship of His sons: but we are therefore said to be justified freely, because that none of those things which precede justification-whether faith or works-merit the grace itself of justification. For, if it be a grace, it is not now by works, otherwise, as the same Apostle says, grace is no more grace.

Of this Justification the causes are these:

the final cause indeed is the glory of God and of Jesus Christ, and life everlasting;
while the efficient cause is a merciful God who washes and sanctifies gratuitously, signing, and anointing with the holy Spirit of promise, who is the pledge of our inheritance;
but the meritorious cause is His most beloved only-begotten, our Lord Jesus Christ, who, when we were enemies, for the exceeding charity wherewith he loved us, merited Justification for us by His most holy Passion on the wood of the cross, and made satisfaction for us unto God the Father;
the instrumental cause is the sacrament of baptism, which is the sacrament of faith, without which (faith) no man was ever justified;
lastly, the alone formal cause is the justice of God, not that whereby He Himself is just, but that whereby He maketh us just, that, to wit, with which we being endowed by Him, are renewed in the spirit of our mind, and we are not only reputed, but are truly called, and are, just, receiving justice within us, each one according to his own measure, which the Holy Ghost distributes to every one as He wills, and according to each one’s proper disposition and co-operation.
Second, we need to make sure we are using the same definition of anathema to answer your question.
I have heard many Calvinists say, “The Council of Trent damned me to hell for believing in the biblical doctrine of justification”
Let’s me be clear. The Catholic church has never and never will damn anyone to hell. Only God can do that.
“The church uses Paul’s ecclesiastical uses of anathema—Galatians 1:8–9 and 1 Corinthians 16:22—in which Paul says that if a person is guilty of certain faults then “let him be anathema.” Minimally, this directed the Christian community to hold the offender in a certain regard. This involved his exclusion from fellowship, as clearly must be done in the case of a person preaching a false gospel. Such exclusion—for a variety of offenses—is attested to elsewhere in the New Testament (e.g., Matt 18:15–18), and often spoken of as “handing [the offender] over to Satan” so that he might suffer without the Church’s protection and thus be driven to repentance (1 Cor. 5; 2 Cor. 2:5–11; Tit. 3:10)”.-https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/anathema.
Third, anathameas only apply to Catholics, not Protestants. The Church makes a distinction between formal heresy and material hersey. To be a formal heretic, you would have to know what the church teaches and dissent from it. Those who grew up Protestant may be guilty of material heresy but since they aren’t Catholic they can’t be anathematized.
I hope you are beginning to see how misunderstandings have contributed to the disunity between Protestants and Catholics.
15. Michael Horton: What is the official Roman Catholic Church view of Purgatory in the context of justification?

First, Purgatory doesn’t save. It purifies from the temporal consequences of sin because “nothing unclean can enter heaven”. This doesn’t fit with the reformed concept that “God will only judge me by Christ’s righteousness on judgement day. Remember that there isn’t a single verse in the bible that says that we will be judged on his righteousness. Jesus taught that we will be judged by our works-works that we are only capable of doing through Christ.

Purgatory is the redemptive flame of God’s love

Here is where we see the wisdom of the Church’s teaching on purgatory. Purgatory doesn’t deny the sufficiency of Christ’s gracious offering for us on Calvary. Instead it distinguishes between the eternal punishment of our sins—for which only God can atone—and the temporal punishment that a loving Father requires his sons and daughters to endure as we willingly and painfully let go of all our attachments to ourselves and other persons and things so that we can be fit for eternal communion with the Lord (CCC 1472). Indeed, forgiveness of sins doesn’t eradicate the bad habits we’ve cultivated in place of virtues. -Tom Nash

In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus teaches that salvation is not a one-time event but a lifelong adventure, one that can extend into our purgative afterlife, as St. Paul adds (1 Cor. 3:10-15; see 1 Peter 1:6-7). Therefore, we can lose our salvation because of gravely wrong actions for which we don’t repent (1 Cor. 6:9-10).

Jesus refers to the sinner who “will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come” (Matt. 12:32), suggesting that one can be freed after death of the consequences of one’s sins. Similarly, Paul tells us that, when we are judged, each man’s work will be tried. And what happens if a righteous man’s work fails the test? “He will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire” (1 Cor 3:15). Now this loss, this penalty, can’t refer to consignment to hell, since no one is saved there; and heaven can’t be meant, since there is no suffering (“fire”) there. The Catholic doctrine of purgatory alone explains this passage..

Temporal punishment due to sin, even after the sin itself has been pardoned by God, is clearly the teaching of Scripture. God indeed brought man out of his first disobedience and gave him power to govern all things but still condemned him “to eat his bread in the sweat of his brow” until he returned unto dust. God forgave the incredulity of Moses and Aaron, but in punishment kept them from the “land of promise”. The Lord took away the sin of David, but the life of the child was forfeited because David had made God‘s enemies blaspheme His Holy Name (II Kings, xii, 13, 14). In the New Testament as well as in the Old, almsgiving and fasting, and in general penitential acts are the real fruits of repentance (Matt., iii, 8; Luke, xvii, 3; xiii, 3). The whole penitential system of the Church testifies that the voluntary assumption of penitential works has always been part of true repentance and the Council of Trent (Sess. XIV, can. xi) reminds the faithful that God does not always remit the whole punishment due to sin together with the guilt. God requires satisfaction, and will punish sin, and this doctrine involves as its necessary consequence a belief that the sinner failing to do penance in this life may be punished in another world, and so not be cast off eternally from God. -Purgatory Catholic Answers.

In Purgatory is a Person, Not a Place, we read that Bible speaks of God, throughout, as a fire—a spiritual fire, but fire, nonetheless. In the Abrahamic Covenant, he is depicted as a torch and burning oven (Genesis 15:1-17). He appears to Moses in a burning bush that is not consumed (Exodus 3:1-8). The Passover lamb is roasted in fire (Exodus 12:8-10). He leads his people through the wilderness in a pillar of fire (Exodus 13:17-21). He thunders in fire on Mt. Sinai at the giving of the Decalogue (Exodus 19:18-19).

He falls from heaven in fire when accepting sacrifices of the altar (Leviticus 9:23-24, Judges 6:21, 1 Kings 18:38). He enters the temple in fire (2 Chronicles 7:1). He receives Elijah into heaven in a chariot of fire (2 Kings 2:11). The Holy Spirit rests upon men in tongues of fire at Pentecost (Acts 2:3). Heaven and earth will be renewed at the end in fire (2 Peter 3:12-13).

The fire is judgment (Amos 5:6); the fire is purification (Malachi 3:2); the fire is love (Song 8:6); the fire is the Person of God:

“Our God is a consuming fire.”

Hebrews 12:29

16. michael horton: What do Catholics do with a verse such as Romans 4:4l5 “Now to the one who does not work his wages are not counted as a fit but as his due, and the one who does not work, but trusts him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness”. What would be the typical response to that in your circles?

As I noted earlier, Paul makes a distinction between works of the law and faith working through love. The context of Romans 4:4,5 refers to the former and not the latter. Both are in scripture so we must address both to arrive at the full understanding.

When Paul wrote that we are justified apart from the works of the law, he was writing to a church in Rome struggling with a very prominent first-century heretical sect known today as the “Judaizers.”

These heretics taught that a man also had to keep the Mosaic Law (which, according to Hebrews 7:11-12, has been superseded in Christ) and be circumcised in order to be saved (cf. Acts 15:1-2).

Paul gave us one clue—among many—that he had this sect in mind when he wrote in Romans 2:28-29, “For he is not a real Jew who is one outwardly, nor is true circumcision something external and physical. He is a Jew who is one inwardly, and real circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit and not by the letter.”

Paul told us in Colossians 2:11-12 that this true “circumcision of Christ” is baptism.

So while Paul does not specifically say “works of law” in Romans 4:5, the context from Romans 3:28 to Romans 4:5 and beyond, makes it clear that Paul was referring to circumcision in particular and the same “works of law” he was referring to in Romans 3:28.

Romans 4:5-10 will suffice to make the point:

And to one who does not work but trusts him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness . . . Is this blessing pronounced only upon the circumcised, or also upon the uncircumcised? We say that faith was reckoned to Abraham as righteousness. How then was it reckoned to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised.

Paul used the example of the “Judaizers” to teach the truth about the nature of justification and works. The works that justify us—as we saw in Romans 2:6-11 and James 2:24—are works done in Christ. Indeed, in Romans 2:4, before Paul even begins to talk about the works we must do to be saved, he says, “Knowest thou not, that the benignity of God leadeth thee to penance” (Douay-Rheims). It is only God’s goodness that leads us to repentance so that we can perform good works. How do we get “in Christ” according to Paul? Through baptism: “Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death . . .” (Rom 6:3-4). It is only after we are in Christ and trusting in the power of his grace at work within us that we have the power to remain in him: “Therefore, since we are justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through him we have obtained access to this grace in which we stand and we rejoice in our hope of sharing the glory of God” (Rom 5:1-2).

Moreover, in Romans 6:16, Paul tells us that after baptism, obedience to Christ leads us to justification while sin will lead us to death (see also Romans 6:23): “Do you not know that if you yield yourselves to any one as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness” (Gk. eis dikaiosunen, unto justification).

Paul’s emphasis is not just on good works, but works done in and through the power of Christ. Thus, in Romans 8:1-14,Paul tells us in no uncertain terms that we must be in Christ in order to do works that please God.

There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus . . . who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit . . . and those who are in the flesh cannot please God . . . So, then, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh—for if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body you will live. For all who are led by the Spirit of God are the sons of God.

Remember that Paul is emphasizing our continuing in Christ, in his grace or “kindness” as he says in Romans 11:22. “Note then the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.” We Can Work it Out

When chrisrtians agree, where will you find a trusted arbiter?

The reformers rejected the authority of the Church because they thought the Church contradicted scripture yet they could not agree among themselves what scripture said.
”Luther and Zwingli fought over the Eucharist in and the Anabaptists over baptism, and that continues today among faithful Christians of each of those traditions. If Scripture is as clear as Protestants claim it is, and we Christians are left with sola Scriptura (“Scripture alone”) to determine the authentic content of the faith, why can no two groups of Protestants seem to agree what exactly our beliefs as Christians are supposed to be? How do we know what is true when two faith traditions interpret the same scriptures differently and can’t agree on the basics of our Christian faith?”

Francis de Sales wrote to the reformers, “you are not able to come to an agreement: — for where will you find a trusted arbitrator? …The Scripture cannot be your arbiter, for it is concerning the Scripture that you are in litigation, some of you being determined to have it understood in one way, some in another. Your discords and your disputes are interminable, unless you give in to the authority of the Church.”

Jesus left his sheep with a Shepherd. He established a teaching authority.

Closing thoughts…

The Catechism of the Catholic Church states that the Eucharist is the “source and summit of the Christian life,” containing “the whole spiritual good of the Church, namely Christ himself, our Pasch.”

When we view salvation history in the context of the passover with Christ as our passover, what Jesus said, “ unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood, you have no life in you.” makes sense because we are participating in his once and for all sacrifice like the Israelites had to participate in the passover.

What does scripture say? Does Scripture and the Church Fathers Depict the Eucharist as a Sacrifice?

In contrast, Martin Luther stated that justification is the article on which the church stands or falls. Yet, as we have seen, his view of justification contradicts both Jesus and Paul. He rejected the teaching authority of the church and elevated his own conceptions to be equal to the gospel. As a result, generations of Christians have been separated from receiving Christ in the Eucharist and 4 of the 7 sacraments that Jesus established.

Joe Heschmeyer once said, if the Catholic church is who she claims to be (the Church established by Christ that contains the fullness of the truth and His authority ) then all Christians should be Catholic. If she isn’t who she claims to be, then no Christian should be Catholic. That’s a bold statement. Here are some articles that may help you discern whether he was right:

The covenant is an area of interest for many Protestants as well as Catholics. And that’s great: without understanding the covenant, you don’t have a full grasp of what Christianity is all about. But to take that idea a step further, without a proper understanding of its distinct Eucharistic, ecclesiastical and sacramental dimensions, you don’t have an adequate understanding of the New Covenant. In these three ways and more, a rich understanding of the New Covenant points to the truth of the Catholic Church.

2. What is the biblical model of Church leadership? God established a Kingdom, and not a Democracy. Look at how the People of God were governed throughout all of history.

A better interpretation of John 10 is that Christ isn’t promising this clarity to every individual sheep, but to the sheep collectively… and through the Church. It’s true that He promises that the sheep will hear His voice, but He also sends out the 72 saying that “He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.” So when we listen to the Church, we listen to Christ. And that’s the mark of being a faithful sheep: our fidelity to our earthly shepherds, the ones that Christ promised us in Jeremiah 3:15 (“And I will give you shepherds after my own heart, who will feed you with knowledge and understanding”).

Let’s return to Christ’s words in John 10:16, “I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, one shepherd.” His meaning here is clear. When He speaks of “this [sheep]fold,” He means Israel. When He speaks of His “other sheep,” He means the faithful Gentiles. And when He promises to incorporate them into a single flock, He’s speaking of the Church.

Can you Eat the Word of God? When Jesus says “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’” (Matt. 4:4) Most people (particularly Protestants) assume he’s reminding us to read the Bible. But in fact, Jesus’ message is a good deal more Christological, and Eucharistic, than many people realize.

Sheep Without A Shepherd

A Simple Case for the Papacy

Was James or Peter the Leader of the Early Church?

How did Jesus Provide for the Transmission of the Faith?

A Quick Ten-Step Refuation of Sola Scripture